String Ratios Discussed:
Bottom Line
This exchange raises two separate Techeiles issues.
First, can a theoretical halachic discussion count as real psak before the case is practically possible? R’ Eliyahu Teitz argues yes, pointing out that Chazal ruled on cases that were effectively theoretical in their time. Micha Berger replies that this may depend on how one understands psak: if psak discovers a single correct halacha, theory and practice are the same; if psak means choosing among legitimate possibilities for an actual case, a real-world situation may matter.
Second, the thread turns to kala ilan. Teitz argues that the Gemara’s rejection of kala ilan shows that the source of the blue matters, not merely the shade. Joel Rich reports in the name of the Rav that, based on the Rambam, the problem with kala ilan was its lack of permanence rather than its color.
Bottom line: the thread exposes two fault lines: whether dormant halachic rulings remain fully operative when circumstances change, and whether Techeiles is defined by its source or by the properties of the finished dye.
Main Text
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 00:38:43 EDT
From: [EDTeitz@aol.com](mailto:EDTeitz@aol.com)
Subject: Re: T’cheyles
First we need to ask if any decision rendered at a time when no one could possibly follow through on the decision can be considered “p’sak”. How could RSRH have referred to techeiles in any way but theoretically?
Against this line of thought, I’d like to present an halacha in the g’mara which talks about “yotzey dofen v’haba acharav”. How many women at the time of the gmara were alive, let alone having children, after a caesarean birth? And yet the g’mara discusses that exact situation.
Certainly the g’mara was issuing a psak, but at the time it was only a theoretical situation. It took us until the 20th century for the theory to become a reality.
Eliyahu Teitz
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 16:29:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: Micha Berger <[micha@aishdas.org](mailto:micha@aishdas.org)>
Subject: Re: T’cheyles
About theoretical discussions vs. actual p’sak…
It may take us back to halachic pluralism vs. singular truth.
If you believe that the job of a poseik is to find a singular correct p’sak, then there should be no difference between theoretical discussions and rendering a p’sak. In both cases, you are trying to find what the halachah truly is.
However, once you introduce pluralism, the two differ greatly. A p’sak is no longer entirely about ascertaining truth. Among the various opinions found to be truly divrei Elokim, one is chosen to the exclusion of the others and that now becomes The Halachah (in caps) for all involved.
Again, I’m not sure that this metaphysical event can occur without a true case on the ground.
-mi
—
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287 Help free Yehuda Katz, held by Syria 5937 days!
[micha@aishdas.org](mailto:micha@aishdas.org) (11-Jun-82 – 1-Oct-98)
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.
http://www.aishdas.org — Orthodox Judaism: Torah, Avodah, Chessed
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 01:09:40 EDT
From: [EDTeitz@aol.com](mailto:EDTeitz@aol.com)
Subject: t’cheyles
(According to the Tif’eres Yisrael, any indellible blue dye of the right shade is usable as techeiles. The importance of chilazon is that it was the only such dye known until modern times. In which case, there’d be no safeik — and therefore no lichatchilah vs. b’dieved — to worry about.)
I think the g’mara’s concern with kla ilan argues against this Tiferes Yisrael. They were aware of an identical shade blue coming from a different source. And that dye was not acceptable.
Eliyahu
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 09:21:26 EDT
From: [Joelirich@aol.com](mailto:Joelirich@aol.com)
Subject: Re: t’cheyles
In a message dated 98-10-04 01:10:02 EDT, you write:
I think the g’mara’s concern with kla ilan argues against this Tiferes Yisrael. They were aware of an identical shade blue coming from a different source. And that dye was not acceptable.
Eliyahu
In a talk on this topic The Rav stated that (based on the Rambam) the problem with kla ilan was its non-permanence, not the color.
Chag Sameach
Joel Rich
