String Ratios Discussed:
Bottom Line
This 2011 Avodah exchange is a useful reminder not to overstate archaeological finds. Micha Berger accepts that Murex was certainly used for ancient purple dye, but argues that finding a Murex-dyed textile does not by itself prove that the item was Techeiles, especially when the surviving color appears somewhat purplish. He also points out that darkness is not a separate identification criterion: the same dye can produce lighter or darker shades depending on how concentrated the dyeing is.
Ilana Elzufon makes a similar point from a different angle. Since the find was not Tzitzis, it adds little to the already established fact that Murex was used in antiquity for dye production. At the same time, she notes that a relatively dark blue is not inconsistent with the description of Techeiles as sky-colored, since the sky overhead at midday can be much darker than the pale blue seen near the horizon.
The bottom line is that this discussion does not challenge the Murex identification itself. Rather, it cautions against using a particular ancient textile as standalone proof of Techeiles and against assuming that authentic Techeiles had to be a pale “sky blue.” The source of the dye, its intended use, and the distinction between hue and shade all have to be considered separately.
Main Text
Message: 12
From: Micha Berger <mi…@aishdas.org>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 16:48:01 -0500
Subject: Re: [Avodah] tekhelet is midnight blue
On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 10:10:16PM +0200, R Eli Turkel wrote to Areivim:
https://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/28/world/middleeast/28blue.html
Sorta…
We know with more certainty than we know what tekheiles is that argaman is a murex-based dye as is Tyrian Purple (hainu hakh, but different uses implied). Which means that if you find a sample of dye, how do you know the intended use was tekheiles? In fact, this patch has a purplish hue, not matching the indigo color of kaleh ilan (the indigo plant, a member of the tea family).
Murex dye is naturally purple. It turns blue by exposure to sunlight. I would think that one could make a basically blue dye but has a pronounced purple tinge by fixing the dye before all the purple is broken down.
I can’t find R’ Dr Koren’s source for assuming this sample is tekheiles in particular.
The other thing is that the darkness of the color isn’t only a function of which dye is used, but the saturation of the dye. Color can be broken down into hue (where on the spectrum it is), saturation (the intensity of the color) and value (dark vs light). Of the three, using a specific dye only specifies hue, and causes some relationship between saturation and value. E.g. if you use very very little dye on a white string, you would get a pale blue — even though you’re using the same dye.
Tir’u baTov!
-Micha
—
Micha Berger “The most prevalent illness of our generation is
mi…@aishdas.org excessive anxiety…. Emunah decreases anxiety:
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Fax: (270) 514-1507 trust and not be afraid.'” (Isa 12) -Shalhevesya
Message: 15
From: Ilana Elzufon <ilanaso…@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 14:50:02 +0200
Subject: Re: [Avodah] tekhelet is midnight blue
Not clear to me what the chidush is in this article. The item they found is not tzitzit. We already know that trunculus murex was used to produce dye, based on archaeological evidence of dye factories with murex shells.
By the way, if you look up at the top of the sky, even at midday on a sunny day, it is a relatively dark blue and not dissimilar to the colour of ptil tekhelet tizitzit. Pale “sky blue” is more what you see looking straight ahead, at the sky near the horizon.
– Ilana
Message: 5
From: Eli Turkel <elitur…@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 17:10:37 +0200
Subject: [Avodah] techelet
Not clear to me what the chidush is in this article. The item they found is not tzitzit. We already know that trunculus murex was used to produce dye, based on archaeological evidence of dye factories with murex shells.
By the way, if you look up at the top of the sky, even at midday on a sunny day, it is a relatively dark blue and not dissimilar to the colour of ptil tekhelet tizitzit. Pale “sky blue” is more what you see looking straight ahead, at the sky near the horizon.
The material that was found was a darker blue than that of ptil techelet. This was much closer to black.
I will check with Dr. Zvi Koren for more details. I could not make the lecture but he said he would give (eventually) a private lecture
—
Eli Turkel
Message: 7
From: Micha Berger <mi…@aishdas.org>
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 13:06:13 -0500
Subject: Re: [Avodah] techelet
On Tue, Mar 01, 2011 at 05:10:37PM +0200, Eli Turkel wrote:
> Not clear to me what the chidush is in this article. The item they found is
> not tzitzit. We already know that trunculus murex was used to produce dye,
> based on archaeological evidence of dye factories with murex shells.
The material that was found was a darker blue than that of ptil techelet. This was much closer to black.
But the same murex derived indigo / dibromoindigo mixture for the dye. Just used differently — much more of it.
A R’ Ari Greenspan of the Amutah commented on RDE’s blog
:
I was at dr. korens lecture. It was disappointing in my estimation. while his science is good his conclusions are mistaken what he claimed to have discovered has no bearing on tekhelet.
1. it is not tzitzit
2 it was found on masada which for most of its usage was roman and not
jewish so this cloth in no way is jewish.
3 it is a small fragment embroidered onto a cloth in his words “found near the shul”
it IS a snail dyed fragment but that is it.
I want to strengthen this point:
RDZK found a patch on a woven garment from Masada. Not a tassle with a blue string or two. For this dying to have been lesheim mitzvah we would have to be talking about bigdei kehunah. I don’t think there is a beged kehunah which is mostly white with blue decoration. The only beged of the 4 begadim that could be tekheiles would be the avneit, but that’s all blue. Do any of the 8 kehunah qualify? And in any case, why would anyone expect to find the begadim of the kohein gadol at Masada?
And we do know that the murex-derived dye was used for divrei chol, at least by wealthy non-Jews.
I therefore am eager to hear from RET how R’ Dr Koren concluded that the use was for tekheiles, even if the dye is the one the Amutah (and before them, Josephus [who wore bidgei kehunah in one period in his life] and the Arukh) say is the one used for the mitzvos.
Tir’u baTov!
-Micha
—
Micha Berger It’s nice to be smart,
mi…@aishdas.org but it’s smarter to be nice.
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Links
- https://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol28/v28n029.shtml#12
- https://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol28/v28n030.shtml#05
