String Ratios Discussed:
Bottom Line
This 2000 Avodah thread highlights an unusual Brisker concern: if Techeiles is me’akev the mitzvah of Tzitzis, then white-only strings may not fully count as a mitzvah at all. That could even create a Shabbos problem, since carrying non-mitzvah strings in a reshus harabbim could be hotza’ah. Participants discuss the resulting Brisker practice of preferring a non-wool tallis kattan as a possible way to avoid the full Torah-level obligation.
The sharpest point comes from Shaul Weinreb: he reports that the Beis HaLevi held that wearing white-only Tzitzis nowadays involves Bal Tigra, with the mitzvah nevertheless permitted because of aseh docheh lo sa’aseh. Weinreb therefore asks the obvious question: if Techeiles is available, why would Briskers not wear Murex? He adds that R’ Hershel Schachter cites this very concern as one of his reasons for wearing Murex Techeiles.
Bottom line: for this Brisker approach, the halachic problem may not be wearing Murex—it may be continuing to wear only white once a plausible Techeiles is available.
Main Text
Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 16:16:53 EST
From: Kenneth G Miller <kennethgmiller@juno.com>
Subject: Is techeles m’akev a Talis Katan?
R’ Harry Maryles wrote <<< I do not use the Chicago Eruv and will not wear a Talis in the street for Hotzo’ah reasons. Being a Talmid of R. Aaron, I follow his (and I assume all Brisker’s) logic on the issue. Since they hold that a lack of T’cheles is MeAkev the Mitzvah of Tzitzis, then wearing those fringes sown to the beged sans T’cheles serve no purpose and it amounts to Hotzo’oh. Since one is not required to wear a beged of Dalid Kanfos, one simply doesn’t. Otherwise there would be a D’Oraiso Violation of Shabbos. It seems to me that even if one does not subscribe to the view that T’cheles is MeAkev (which I believe is almost the universal view), it would be prudent to be choshesh for this view.
Would I be correct in presuming that those who follow the logic above also avoid wearing a four-cornered tallis katan even during the week? For lack of t’cheles, that shita would say it’s assur, no?
Akiva Miller
Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 11:27:43 -0600
From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
Subject: Re: Avodah V4 #265
FWIW, I wear an atarah on my talis, three rows of silver plates as a reminder of the three kisarim of Avos 4:17, and in particular, to remember to earn the fourth.
It also makes my talis hard to lose. Who else has a white-on-white talis with techeiles tied lefi the Radziner and an atarah to boot? <grin>
-mi
—
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287 MMG”H for 9-Jan-00: Cohen, Bo micha@aishdas.org A”H http://www.aishdas.org Pisachim 96b For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light. Melachim-II 12
Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 12:23:55 -0800 (PST)
From: Harry Maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Is techeles m’akev a Talis Katan?
— Kenneth G Miller <kennethgmiller@juno.com> wrote:
R’ Harry Maryles wrote <<< I do not use the Chicago Eruv and will not wear a Talis in the street for Hotzo’ah reasons. Being a Talmid of R. Aaron, I follow his (and I assume all Brisker’s) logic on the issue. Since they hold that a lack of T’cheles is MeAkev the Mitzvah of Tzitzis, then wearing those fringes sown to the beged sans T’cheles serve no purpose and it amounts to Hotzo’oh. Since one is not required to wear a beged of Dalid Kanfos, one simply doesn’t. Otherwise there would be a D’Oraiso Violation of Shabbos. It seems to me that even if one does not subscribe to the view that T’cheles is MeAkev (which I believe is almost the universal view), it would be prudent to be choshesh for this view. Would I be correct in presuming that those who follow the logic above also avoid wearing a four-cornered tallis katan even during the week? For lack of t’cheles, that shita would say it’s assur, no?
I apologize to the list for the lack of clarity on this issue,. I hope to do some research on it and get back to you with more details.
As regards the above question. I believe that R. Aaron is only choshesh L’Gabi Shabbos. L’Gabi chol he is Noheg K’chol HaOlam: i.e. he wears a beged of Daled Kanfos for his Talis Katon with Tzitzis of Lavan.
Perhaps one can speculate that R. Aaron wears a Beged that does not have a Chiuv Deoraiso, i.e. cotton instead of Tzemer, thus avoiding the problem that way.
HM
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 10:50:09 -0500
From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
Subject: Re: Is techeles m’akev a Talis Katan?
I heard that Briskers were makpid to wear a tliis Koton that was NOT made out of wool. I don’t recall how the lomdus works with non-woolen garments being different legabei the ikkuv of techeiles, but that was the upshot.
Of course the “velt” asked what about Tallis Gadol? Nobody – not even Briskers – wore non-wool tallis gadol?
To me that was the upshlug althou I am glad to find out at least there is a Rishon (i.e. Baal Hamaro) who paskens the way Brisk does!
And now can I be someich on the Baal hamaore to me meva’eir chometz ereve Pesach with achilo <smile>?
R’ Harry Maryles wrote <<< I do not use the Chicago Eruv and will not wear a Talis in the street for Hotzo’ah reasons. Being a Talmid of R. Aaron, I follow his (and I assume all Brisker’s) logic on the issue. Since they hold that a lack of T’cheles is MeAkev the Mitzvah of Tzitzis, then wearing those fringes sown to the beged sans T’cheles serve no purpose and it amounts to Hotzo’oh. Since one is not required to wear a beged of Dalid Kanfos, one simply doesn’t. Otherwise there would be a D’Oraiso Violation of Shabbos. It seems to me that even if one does not subscribe to the view that T’cheles is MeAkev (which I believe is almost the universal view), it would be prudent to be choshesh for this view.
Would I be correct in presuming that those who follow the logic above also avoid wearing a four-cornered tallis katan even during the week? For lack of t’cheles, that shita would say it’s assur, no?
Akiva Miller
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 14:33:57 -0500
From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
Subject: Re[2]: Is techeles m’akev a Talis Katan?
This is what I was told that Briskers do is where a non-wool begged.
The problem they have to deal with is that virtually NOBODY wore a non-wool tallis Gadol as far back as anyone can remember (yes let’s dicount those American silk Taleism)
IOW, how can Brisk ignore the entire “velt” minhag on this?
Rich Wolpoe
Subject: Re: Is techeles m’akev a Talis Katan? <snip>
Perhaps one can speculate that R. Aaron wears a Beged that does not have a Chiuv Deoraiso, i.e. cotton instead of Tzemer, thus avoiding the problem that way.
HM
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 13:41:22 -0600 (CST)
From: Saul J Weinreb <sweinr1@uic.edu>
Subject: techeiles
Reb Akinva Miller asks, “Would I be correct in presuming that those who follow the logic above also avoid wearing a four-cornered tallis katan even during the week? For lack of t’cheles, that shita would say it’s assur, no?” No, like I said in my previous post, the mekor of the chumra is the Maharam Miruttenberg. The acharonim and rishonim actually explain the maharam’s not wearing tzitzis brshus harabbim on shabbos in several ways. One pshat is that he was afraid they would tear, another is that he was choshesh for the shita of the baal hamaor, and a few others which I don’t remember offhand but bli neder I can fill you in when I get home. By the Way, one who reads the baal hamaor inside will see that it seems that he didn’t wear tzitzis at all, because he held that techeiles is meakeiv. Some acharonim tried to understand that he didn’t really mean it, but the Ramban certainly understood that the baal hamaor did not wear tzitzis. Shaul Weinreb
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 06:43:59 -0600
From: Saul Weinreb <sweinr1@uic.edu>
Subject: techeiles
I said that I would fill you in on the resaons for not weariing tzitzis bereshus harabbim on shabbos. Like I said there are many reassons given for the chumra of the Maharam. In a paper I wrote I found six different explanations – 1)that he was choshesh for the shita of the baal hamaor (most popular) 2) that he was afraid that they would tear and hence he would be carrying on shabbos (Ramban – in explaining this chumra, which was BTW not only the maharam’s, just that he was the major Rishon who we know had this chumra) 3) that he was choshesh that his talis katan was not considered a begged (Ritva) 4) That he had in mind to put on techeiles ASAP, and when it is daato aleyhen lesaknan they do not have a din of finished (my own, based on various sources) 5) that he considered the extra two strings that are zecher letecheiles eynam reuyin lebilah and not beteilim to the other strings (Rebbe from Radzin and Shaagas Aryeh) 6) that the eatra two strings of white were only a zeicher and not beteilin (“Lomdically” slightly different from #5, – various acharonim). The most popular explanation however as wee can see from this list is # 1. Shaul Weinreb
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 07:17:29 -0800 (PST)
From: Harry Maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Is techeles m’akev a Talis Katan?
— richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:
This is what I was told that Briskers do is where a non-wool begged. The problem they have to deal with is that virtually NOBODY wore a non-wool tallis Gadol as far back as anyone can remember (yes let’s dicount those American silk Taleism) IOW, how can Brisk ignore the entire “velt” minhag on this?
I believe that the GRA also wore a non-Tzemer Beged for his Talis Katan. It is likely that his Talis Gadol was woolen as is R. Aaron’s. Perhaps the answer is that for the relatively brief period of Tefilah a Talis Gadol is worn just Lephi Daas HaOmrim that Tchelis is not Meakev and a cotton Beged is worn as a TK because one wears it all day and therefore it minimizes the time span of issur.
Just speculation.
HM
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 10:46:26 -0500
From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
Subject: Re[4]: Is techeles m’akev a Talis Katan?
I heard that the Gra wore a non-wool Tallis koton in order to be davka to be meakeym Tzitzis BOTH midreabbonon and mid’oraiso so he made it a point to cover BOTH ways…
Rich Wolpoe
I believe that the GRA also wore a non-Tzemer Beged for his Talis Katan. It is likely that his Talis Gadol was woolen as is R. Aaron’s. Perhaps the answer is that for the relatively brief period of Tefilah a Talis Gadol is worn just Lephi Daas HaOmrim that Tchelis is not Meakev and a cotton Beged is worn as a TK because one wears it all day and therefore it minimizes the time span of issur.
Just speculation.
HM
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 12:19:19 -0600
From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
Subject: Techeiles
When explaining R’ Herzog’s objection to Radziner techeiles I have often phrased it as “If you had started with maple syrup and otherwise followed the same recipe, you’d get the same dye.” Because the recipe destroys the original biochemical, freeing up potassium (I was mistaken before when I said nitrogen) which with the other ingredients makes Prussian Blue, a well known dye.
Perhaps a Radziner chassid could argue that the gemara means something similar when it warns against false dyes based on “kaleh ilan”. Not, as the murex techeiles camp assumes, that the kaleh ilan specifies a single dye of similar make-up, but that “kaleh ilan” is an example of something very different than chilazon, much like my use of “maple syrup”. (Or R’ Mordechai Avraham Katz’s mention of apple juice in his article in “Kobeitz Or Yisrael”, vol 10.)
BTW, note that the Tif’eres Yisra’el, in arguing that any color-fast sky-blue dye is kosher for techeiles (an opinion also followed by R’ ZH Kalisher), argues that the pesul in kaleh ilan is that it fades. If nothing else, this shows that kaleh ilan need not to be understood as something chemically identical to true techeiles, just similar enough to the eye to fool a shopper who hasn’t even taken it home yet.
This is an important point, as the Aruch’s identification of “kaleh ilan” with the indigo plant, and therefore associating techeiles with the chemical indigo and its variants, plays a strong role in the pro-murex argument. The murex techeiles is dibromide indigo. It would seem that they (perhaps I should say we, although I’m just among the hoy-paloy on this) make an assumption of similarity to an extent not required by the gemara. The Aruch saying that it’s similar to a blue dye made from indigo is satisfied by any dye that has the same color when new.
-mi
—
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287 MMG”H for 11-Jan-00: Shelishi, Bo micha@aishdas.org A”H http://www.aishdas.org Pisachim 97b For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 12:56:26 -0600 (CST)
From: Saul J Weinreb <sweinr1@uic.edu>
Subject: techeiles
Reb Rich Wolpoe asks,
This is what was told that Briskers do is where a non-wool begged. The problem they have to deal with is that virtually NOBODY wore a non-wool tallis Gadol as far back as anyone can remember (yes let’s dicount those American silk Taleism) IOW, how can Brisk ignore the entire “velt” minhag on this?
I’m not exactly sure but the Beis Halevi in siman 34 (maybe 32 – my memory isn’t so great) holds that every time we wear tzitzis without techeiles bzman hazeh we are violating the issur of Bal Tigra. The only reason that we are allowed to is because of aseh docheh lo saaseh. Maybe they wear cotton tzitzis to avoid Bal Tigra? Personally, I don’t fully understand why all Briskers aren’t wearing the Murex Trunculus techeiles for the same reason. BTW Rav Schechter cites this as one of the reasons why he does wear this techeiles. Shaul Weinreb
Links
- https://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol04/v04n266.shtml#11
- https://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol04/v04n268.shtml#03
- https://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol04/v04n270.shtml#03
- https://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol04/v04n272.shtml#03
- https://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol04/v04n276.shtml#19
- https://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol04/v04n277.shtml#04
