String Ratios Discussed:
Bottom Line
This exchange separates two questions that are often bundled together: can the Murex produce both Techeiles and Argaman, and does halacha actually require Argaman to come from the same animal?
The scientific possibility is straightforward enough: Murex secretion can develop different colors depending on how it is processed and exposed to light, so the same basic dye source could potentially yield both blue Techeiles and purple Argaman. Mendel Singer, however, correctly asks the more basic historical question: what is the source that Argaman had to come from a snail at all?
Saul Mashbaum argues that R’ Samson Raphael Hirsch understood all three Mishkan dyes as animal-derived, based on his reading of the Yerushalmi, but even RSRH does not identify Argaman with any particular animal. More strikingly, Rashi defines Techeiles specifically as wool dyed with the blood of the Chilazon, while describing Argaman simply as wool dyed an Argaman color. The Rambam likewise does not specify a biological source for Argaman.
Bottom line: the fact that Murex can plausibly produce both blue and purple is interesting evidence for the ancient dye industry, but it does not prove that halachic Argaman must come from Murex. The sources discussed here actually suggest an important distinction: Techeiles may be defined partly by its source, while Argaman may be defined primarily by its color.
Main Text
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 17:55:59 -0600
From: “brent” <fallingstar613@hotmail.com>
Subject: techeles
Clearly RSRH is saying that techeiles is blue, argaman is purple wool. That said, I have no idea how he holds this, as the definition of techeiles as blue wool is assumed by chazal in defining mitzvas tzitzis.
I hope b”N to post on this soon in some detail, but for now will note that RSRH describes the symbolic meaning of all the colors in the Mishkan (and the bigdei k’huna):
lavan
shani
argaman
t’chelect
in his commentary to Shmot 25:8.
When I worked at the Temple Institute (Machon HaMikdash) in Yerushalayim we often worked with the Techelet org. that produces its namesake. I was shown that the process of making the techeles entails a number of steps. Exposure to sunlight is part of that process. If it is exposed to sunlight while still unprocessed, the dye changes from green to purple.
See this website: http://www.begedivri.com/techelet/HiddenBlue.htm, which I quote here. It is still one opinion among many:
“…A thought occured to me: since Argamon and Techelet were both made from the extract of a snail, could it be possible that both colors were produced from the same snail? … A seventeenth-century expert in the dyeing process, William Cole, described the change in color which the unprocessed extract of the purpura snail undergoes as it is exposed to sunlight. It begins as a light green, then becomes a dark green. Soon a hue of blue can be detected and the substance turns to sea-green. The green hue fades and the color becomes blue. Continued exposure to light results in a red hue, and the substance turns purplish until it becomes a deep purple-red. In the nineteenth century, Drs. Lacaze-Duthiers and Adrian Robert of the Zoological Laboratory of the Sorbonne experimented with various species of murex and purpura and found that they, too, undergo a very similar change in color. (Hebrew Porphyrology, Rabbi I.H. Herzog, pp.28-29.)”
[Email #2. -mi]
RAM:
But if so, then where does “argaman” fit into this? If it’s not the name of the fabric, then wouldn’t it perforce be the name of the color?
RMB:
Clearly RSRH is saying that techeiles is blue, argaman is purple wool. That said, I have no idea how he holds this, as the definition of techeiles as blue wool is assumed by chazal in defining mitzvas tzitzis.
Here is a quote from R. Leibel Reznick in an article about the dyes at http://www.begedivri.com/techelet/HiddenBlue.htm:
“…since Argamon and Techelet were both made from the extract of a snail, could it be possible that both colors were produced from the same snail? .. A seventeenth-century expert in the dyeing process, William Cole, described the change in color which the unprocessed extract of the purpura snail undergoes as it is exposed to sunlight. It begins as a light green, then becomes a dark green. Soon a hue of blue can be detected and the substance turns to sea-green. The green hue fades and the color becomes blue. Continued exposure to light results in a red hue, and the substance turns purplish until it becomes a deep purple-red. In the nineteenth century, Drs. Lacaze-Duthiers and Adrian Robert of the Zoological Laboratory of the Sorbonne experimented with various species of murex and purpura and found that they, too, undergo a very similar change in color. (Hebrew Porphyrology, Rabbi I.H. Herzog, pp.28-29.)”
bk
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 14:29:30 -0500
From: Mendel Singer <mendel@case.edu>
Subject: Re: techeles
At 05:55 PM 10/30/2005 -0600, RBKyou wrote:
Here is a quote from R. Leibel Reznick in an article about the dyes at:
http://www.begedivri.com/techelet/HiddenBlue.htm:“…since Argamon and Techelet were both made from the extract of a snail,
What is the source for saying that argaman came from a snail? I didn’t think this was so pashut.
I know people claim this, and many people seem to think that murex snails were the source of argaman (including people on both sides of the murex trunculus techeiles debate), but I thought there were other opinions.
So, what is known about the source of argaman?
mendel
Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 08:57:51 -0500
From: mlevinmd@aol.com
Subject: Re: techeles
What is the source for saying that argaman came from a snail? I didn’t think this was so pashut.
I know people claim this, and many people seem to think that murex snails were the source of argaman (including people on both sides of the murex trunculus techeiles debate), but I thought there were other opinions.
As I recall (can’t check now) R. Bachya says this in his commentary to prashas Teruma.
M. Levin
Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 23:02:51 +0200
From: Saul Mashbaum <smash52@netvision.net.il>
Subject: Re: techeles
Mendel Singer <mendel@case.edu> wrote:
What is the source for saying that argaman came from a snail? I didn’t think this was so pashut. I know people claim this, and many people seem to think that murex snails were the source of argaman (including people on both sides of the murex trunculus techeiles debate), but I thought there were other opinions.
In his commentary on the Torah, RSRH states that just as the wool in the yeriot and the bigdei k’huna was of course of animal origin, so all the dyes were of animal origin. (This connects to his explanation of the wool as representing the animal-like, not vegetative, elements in man.)
Although he does not bring any proof for this statement there, in the Yeshurun article which he cites as the basis of his explanation of the symbolism of the three colors he does. The Yerushalmi, Kilayim 9,1, in the course of a discussion of the bigdie khuna, says “Ma shni tolaat davar sheyesh bo ruach hayyim, af kol davar sheyesh bo ruach chayyim”.
RSRH takes this to mean “just as the shani must be of animal origin, so the other two dyes must be of animal origin.” Bimchilat kvodo, this is a surprising and unusual interpretation of this statement. AFAIK, “Ma.. af kol davar” is not usually understood this way (atleast in the Bavli).
The Pnei Moshe explains that the passage means that the shani color must be of animal origin, but may come from any animal (kol davar sheyesh bo ruach hayyim). It must be conceded, however, that it would be strange that both the shani and the tchelet must be of animal origin, and the argaman need not be; this is however, hardly a compelling argument.
RSRH in any event makes no reference at all to the argaman dye having to come from a specific animal, certainly not the snail.
Other mforshim, AFAIK, do not relate to the source of the argaman dye at all (see Rashi on Shmot 25:3, where tchelet is defined as wool dyed with chilazon blood, and argaman is defined as wool dyed with “argaman-colored dye”. It is virtually explicit that Rashi does not understand argaman as coming from the chilazon, and it seems that argaman-dye can come from any source, the color is whatis important).
Similarly, the Rambam in Hilchot Klei HaMikdash does not define the source of the argaman dye at all.
Saul Mashbaum