String Ratios Discussed:
Bottom Line
This thread draws a sharp distinction between accepting the Radzyner’s Techeiles identification and accepting the Radzyner’s halachic system for tying Techeiles.
Micha Berger says explicitly that he would not use the Radzyner dye, because the chemistry appears to show that the blue comes from a process that could extract the necessary nitrogen from many sources, not uniquely from the proposed Chilazon. At the same time, he still treats the Radzyner as an important halachic authority on how Techeiles should be tied, and therefore follows his tying method.
The discussion then turns to why Radzyner Chassidim continued wearing their Techeiles despite the scientific objection. R’ Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer and others suggest that, for Chassidim, the practice is not based only on whether the original scientific identification was correct. It is also rooted in loyalty to the Rebbe’s practice, mesorah, and the idea that following the Rebbe itself can have religious significance. David Eisenman points out the irony that mesorah-type arguments, once used against the Radzyner, were later used to defend continued Radzyner practice.
Bottom line: the failure of the Radzyner’s scientific identification does not automatically erase everything he established. His dye can be rejected on factual grounds while his halachic work on Techeiles tying remains influential. At the same time, continued Radzyner use shows how a practice can survive even when its original factual basis is challenged, because it has already become part of a living mesorah.
Main Text
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 10:42:08 -0400
From: Nachman Levine <nachmanl@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Silver Atarot
R. Moshe DovBer Rivkin, “Ashkavta DiRebi”, ff. 17 discusses the Chabad custom of not wearing an Atarah on a Talis Gadol; he notes that Chasidei Chabad ARE Makpid to have their Tzitzis in front of them (evidently based on the SheLaH, cited in Magen Avraham 8); the Levush cites the issue of an Atarah for the head making the Talis a garment for the head (and not the body) rendering it exempt from Tzitzis and writes that the custom in the lands of Yishmael NOT to have ANY Atarah is a Minhag Yafeh [so a white-on-white Talit with an Atarah would be anomalous if not oxymoronic . . . ]; anecdotally he cites a tradition that when the Alter Rebbe was arrested all of his Chasidim removed their silver Atarot to collect funds for him [the document of the Takanah is in Heilman’s “Beis Rebbi”]; he conjectures that they never put them back on since.
Nachman Levine
Nachman and Hindy Levine
NachmanL@Juno.com
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 15:21:44 +0200 (“IST)
From: Eli Turkel <turkel@math.tau.ac.il>
Subject: techelet
– -mi
It also makes my talis hard to lose. Who else has a white-on-white talis with techeiles tied lefi the Radziner and an atarah to boot? <grin>
Are the techelet Radziner or only the way if tying?
I personally prefer the Gra.
Why would anyone today use the techelet of Radzin after research has shown that its color comes from the dyes added and not from the chilazon?
Eli Turkel
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 08:04:39 -0600
From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
Subject: Re: techelet
On Mon, Jan 10, 2000 at 03:21:44PM +0200, Eli Turkel wrote:
Are the techelet Radziner or only the way if tying?
Only the way of tying. My reason is twofold:
1- While I think he was the victim of deception by his chemist, he is still the most authoritative posek to present a halachah lima’aseh ruling for the public on how to tie tzitzis with chulyos.
2- RSRH (Collected Writings III) shows how the Rambam’s shitah dovetails very well with RSRH’s ta’am hamitzvah. The Radziner’s shitah is his opinion of the Rambam’s p’sak. The knots the Rambam was talking about is orthogonal to the 5 double knots we make to accomodate the medrash. On this first part, he is agreeing with the Ba’al haTanya. First and last winding are white, and only one of 8 strings are techeiles.
I personally prefer the Gra.
Which is how my father’s are tied.
Why would anyone today use the techelet of Radzin after research has shown that its color comes from the dyes added and not from the chilazon?
I can’t argue this one very well, as I wouldn’t. However, the color comes from the nitrogen in the original fish combined with the other chemicals. This means that it does use the proposed chilazon. The problem is that the same process would extract the nitrogen and make a dye out of nearly any other chemical — not just a single kaleh ilan.
See http://israelvisit.co.il/beged-ivri/techelet/misnagid.htm for an anti-murex polemic. He is even-handed enough to provide a link to Amutat P’til Techelet http://tekhelet.co.il (the murex trunculus people, our chaver Saul Guberman is given by the web site as their person to contact in the US) on the page.
Off of http://israelvisit.co.il/beged-ivri/ are a number of links about the Radziner, including a complete translation of Sefunei Temunei Chol.
-mi
—
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287 MMG”H for 10-Jan-00: Levi, Bo
micha@aishdas.org A”H
http://www.aishdas.org Pisachim 97a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 08:28:28 -0600
From: “Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer” <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
Subject: Re: techelet
—– Original Message —–
Why would anyone today use the techelet of Radzin after research has shown that its color comes from the dyes added and not from the chilazon?
I can’t argue this one very well, as I wouldn’t. However, the color comes from the nitrogen in the original fish combined with the other chemicals. This means that it does use the proposed chilazon. The problem is that the same process would extract the nitrogen and make a dye out of nearly any other chemical — not just a single kaleh ilan.
Because they are Chassidim. Chassidim do not always do things because they are right, but because the Rebbes did them and emulating the Rebbes is a path to kedusha. They often cite, in Lubavitch, for example, the Gemara in Sukkah by Hadas Shoteh of “Ho’il v’nafak me’puma d’Rav.”
Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila ygb@aishdas.org
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 11:22:24 -0500
From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
Subject: Re[2]: techelet
Or perhaps the Rebbes ignored the metzius in its “cientific objective” form and went for a manifestation fo Techielss in a more spiritual/mystical/halachic manifestation.
So it’s not that the rebbes are necessarily right/wrong, perhaps they simply were not speaking from a “physcial plane” persepective.
Rich Wolpoe
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 11:28:43 -0500
From: “David Eisenman” <eisenman@umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Techelet
R’ Eli Turkel queried (V4 #269):
Why would anyone today use the techelet of Radzin after research has shown that its color comes from the dyes added and not from the chilazon?
Ironically, some of the Radziner advocates rely in part on Da’as Torah-ish and Mesorah arguments to support their practice (of course, these are some of the arguments that were initially used against them when the ADMO”R first introduced his techeiles).
See the response to R. Mordechai Katz’ article (Ohr Yisrael, No. 10, 1997) by R. Shlomo Engelard (Ohr Yisrael, Nos. 11-12, 1998), available on the web at:
http://virtualjerusalem.com/orgs/orgs/tekhelet/pub.htm.
Sincerely,
David Eisenman
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 12:32:18 EST
From: Joelirich@aol.com
Subject: Re: techelet
In a message dated 1/10/00 9:04:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, micha@aishdas.org writes:
On Mon, Jan 10, 2000 at 03:21:44PM +0200, Eli Turkel wrote:
Are the techelet Radziner or only the way if tying?
Only the way of tying. My reason is twofold:
1- While I think he was the victim of deception by his chemist, he is still the most authoritative posek to present a halachah lima’aseh ruling for the public on how to tie tzitzis with chulyos.
Any alternative explanations, since the “deception” explanation might lead one to believe that a posek might not necessarily be able to gather all the “secular” information needed when making a psak in an area requiring “secular” information.
Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 14:15:20 -0500 (EST)
From: “Jonathan J. Baker” <jjbaker@panix.com>
Subject: Tallis: atarah, techeilet
From: nachman levine <nachmanl@juno.com>
R. Moshe DovBer Rivkin, “Ashkavta DiRebi”, ff. 17 discusses the Chabad custom of not wearing an Atarah on a Talis Gadol; he notes that Chasidei Chabad ARE Makpid to have their Tzitzis in front of them…
From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@juno.com>
From: Harry Maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
Far be it from me to speak for Lubavitch but I believe that the reason they correctly have no Atoros whatsoever is because of the the idea of not having an “up” or “down” side to the Beged. i.e. you should be able…
I don’t know what basis you have for saying that not having an atoro is correct. The Magen Avraham brought by the Baer Hetev and Mishna Brura. The purpose is to keep the same tzizis in the same positions, because keresh shezocho bedarom, etc. The Ari z”l was not makpid on this.
know? He told me to look on the inside of the tallis and find the lining which is used for purposes of putting the talis on the head. So, they do have an “up” end after all.
I thought you could tell by looking which side was sweated up <g>. You have made my kasha stronger; obviously in practice they do follow the M”A but use a lining on the inside instead of the outside.
My grandfather, whose father seems to have been some kind of chosid (from Berditchev, had peyos) kept his tallis all his life even though he stopped being religious before WWI, about when he got married. We found it after he died, and I used it for a while. It’s lined, and has some stitching on one side to show which end is up. No embroidered atarah, like most tallitot today.
R’ Eli Turkel:
Why would anyone today use the techelet of Radzin after research has shown that its color comes from the dyes added and not from the chilazon?
Because it was certified by a Tzaddik, rather than being certified by a Scientist. See the anti-murex polemics on the Beged Ivri site.
Jonathan Baker | Mabye Shevat should be a month of Sundays, i.e.
jjbaker@panix.com | rest. As in, uvayom hashvi’i Shevat vayinafash.
New web page, featuring Rambam Resources: <http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker>
