A Negative Mesorah?



Quick Facts
  • Debate Categories: Mesorah
  • Responses: 4
  • Related Debates: 1
Categories: Mesorah

In the 1880’s, The Radzyner Rebbe suggested that the חלזון is a squid-like creature called the Common Cuttlefish (Sepia Officinalis). The Bais Halevi rejected the תכלת suggested by the Radzyner Rebbe for the following reason; the cuttlefish was available throughout history, and was never used as תכלת . Hence, it is as if we have a tradition stating that this fish is not a :חלזון

הבית הלוי )הובא שם(: “אכן אם נאמר כי הדג היה במציאות, וגם הוצאת צבעו היה ידוע בכל זמן מהזמנים שעברו עלינו מעת שפסקה התכלת מישראל, ועל כל זה לא לבשוהו אבותינו ואבות אבותינו, הרי הוא כאילו יש לנו בקבלה ומסורה מאבותינו כי זה הדג וצבעו איננו החלזון והתכלת אף שהוא בכל הסימנים שסמנו בו חז״ל, כי אפילו נרבה כחול ראיות לא יועילו נגד הקבלה והמסורה, ורק אחרי אשר יברר לנו כי דג זה או מלאכת צבעו נפסק ונשכח מציאתו או ידיעתו בשום זמן מהזמנים ונפסקה בזה הקבלה אז יהיה לנו דברי ההלכה לראיה”.

“However, if we shall say that the fish was in existence, and the method of extracting its dye was known at all times that have passed since the cessation of תכלת from Israel, and despite this our fathers and forefathers did not wear it; it is as if we have a tradition from our fathers that this fish and its dye are not the חלזון and תכלת , even if it matches all the signs given by Chazal. For even if we will bring proofs as numerous as the sand it will be futile in the face of [this] tradition (Mesorah). Only after he will clarify to us that this fish or its method of dyeing ceased and was forgotten at some point in time, and the tradition was broken, then the words of Halacha will be considered proof.”

Debate Responses

Agree

A "negative" Mesorah.

Levush HaAron
Item 1

The Common Cuttlefish that the Radzyner Rebbe claimed was the חלזון was used throughout the ages as a source for ink. Indeed, the Greek name for cuttlefish, Sepia, is associated with the brown colour of cuttlefish ink144. As we explained on page 31, the תכלת derived from the Murex Trunculus does not have this (negative) “ מסורה ”. To the contrary, we have shown exactly why it was impossible to obtain for nearly a thousand years, and subsequently it was not easily brought back. The forgotten identity of the חלזון and the process of dyeing blue with it were only re-discovered in recent years. The Beis Halevi clearly states that if it could be explained why use of this חלזון ceased, “we would be obligated to wear it”. 145

Bottom Line: The objection of the Bais Halevi to Radzyner Techeiles is actually a support for that of the Murex.

Footnotes

143 הבית הלוי, הובא לשונו בהקדמה לס’ עין התכלת.

144 Wikipedia, Cephalopod ink.

145 גם ראוי להעיר שרוב ישראל נוהגים היום לאכול בשר תרנגול הודו ובאמת, ידוע שאין .)Turkey( לעוף הזה מסורת על כשרותו, וקיי”ל )יו”ד ס’ פב( שלסימני כשרות בעוף צריך מסורת. וא”כ כל מי שאוכלה היום סומך – להקל – על ידע מדעי שאינו דורס, וד”ל.

 

Murex dyeing until 1453

Rafi Hecht
Item 2

The fact also is that murex dyeing ended in 1453 during the siege of Constantinople. The reason Jews didn’t wear Techeiles between the 7th and 15th centuries is precisely how the Ramban worded it, that in his time only the Melech Goyim (https://bluefringes.com/archeology/melech-goyim-candidates/) and nobody else wore Techeiles. It’s speculative what the last dye house was used for (possibly to make murex dyed wool for the Pope – one of the candidates) but what’s certain is that non-Jews were still wearing Techeiles when Jews as a whole were forbidden from doing so.

Item

R' Yisroel Reisman • Source: Mishpacha Response to Techeiles
Item 3

There are different traditions about what the Beis HaLevi said regarding the Radzyner Rebbe’s cuttlefish: Some hold that he said the chilazon needs a positive mesorah, without which it cannot be identified. (Others hold he said that if there is a fish that everyone knew about throughout the ages, that is essentially a mesorah that it’s not the chilazon.)

Item

R' Chaim Klein • Source: Mishpacha Response to Techeiles
Item 4

The second tradition mentioned would seem to be the correct one for a number of reasons.

1. That version was recorded and published in the Radzyner Rebbe’s sefer during the lifetime of the Beis Halevi, based on a letter dictated by the Beis Halevi himself, and is also the version quoted by Rav Elyashiv in Kovetz Teshuvos.

2. The first tradition is contrary to the opinion of numerous Rishonim and Acharonim ( מהרי” ל לבוש עולת תמיד חמדת שלמ ה ועוד הרבה ).

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